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Janbran18 |
#271 | |||
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Ozroz- In theory I agree with everything you said. This is a rather lengthy thread that may have been rehashed too many times to too many people. Understand
that for me, everything old is new again though considering I just refound these clips (and this board) a few weeks ago. Just wanted to make sure so you know I
wasn't trying to be redundant!:)
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oldtimejackjenfan |
#272 | |||
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For me, this thread had not run it's course. I found JB and JG's observations back and forth to be very interesting.
However, those of us analyzers can certainly do that in such a way that we dont' make others feel badly. No hard feelings.
Quietly they go, the intelligent, the witty, the brave.
I know. But I do not approve. And I am not resigned. Millay |
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JacksGirl |
#273 | |||
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OldTime-I agree.I didn't think the thread had run it's course.However,the tone of it has been changed now,so we'll see how that goes.Maybe
something new will come from it.
JG
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IrlandesaK |
#274 | |||
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In the spirit of discussion and analysis, I would like to respond to something posted a few days ago that I've been meaning to address. Forgive me if I
write a book as I have a tendency to ramble.
I think she needed to hear him say it as much for his sake as for hers. It's all part of what makes early J&J such a magnificent story. Jennifer knew Jack loved her. She may have had some doubts around the time they shared their first kiss but she was a smart girl. I think she read his actions as well as we did/do. The problem with actions is they are not a relationship. Knowing someone loves you is different than being in a loving relationship. Just as Jack wanting to be with Jennifer is different than actually being with her. Making Jack voice his feelings was about more than confirming what she knew. She didn't need him to say it to know. Look no further than her willingness to sleep with him even without him admitting it. I don't think Jennifer would have done that with someone she wasn't sure loved her. She didn't even need Jack's "You know." She needed him to say the words because making him say the words pulls him out of his denial. It takes away one of his last defenses even if it's a defense that no one believes. For Jack, allowing himself to be vulnerable enough to say the words would mean he's vulnerable enough to commit to a relationship. And Jennifer knew that. Without his willingness to commit, she's really got nothing. She can't force him into a relationship. You know, I usually lack patience with stories where the woman chases the guy. There comes a point where I want to scream "woman, have some pride" and it ruins the whole thing for me. There have been only two stories where I never reached that point. The second one was Simon and Katie on ATWT (and there were a lot of J&J fans in that fanbase.) J&J, of course, being the first. As much as Jennifer chased Jack, I have to credit the show for never making her seem pathetic. She openly acknowledged she shouldn't be giving him aas many chances as she did. Sometimes she would push him but more often than not she'd give him a dirty look after he protested and walk out. The show also took great care in showing just how fragile his denial was. There were numerous times he was about to throw caution to the wind before external forces would pull him back from the happiness ledge. If it wasn't his own conscience, it was Emilio. If it wasn't Emilio, it was Melissa. If it wasn't Melissa, it was Harper. We knew that all Jennifer needed to get Jack to go where they both wanted to go was for Jack to reach a moment of acceptance without ghosts from his past making him remember why he shouldn't. That's why it took the Cruise of Deception for J&J to happen. If I recall correctly, there were no naysayers on that boat. In fact, they even had a few champions. Jennifer was able to argue her case and Jack finally crossed over with no one around to pull him back. All those negative forces were stuck in Salem. Interestingly enough, looking back, it's no surprise that they hit a rocky patch soon after. In some ways it was too soon for them. (Not for me, mind you, but for them. :) ) They were living the fantasy life but Jack still hadn't learned how to cope with the issues that were keeping them apart. His willingness to let himself be happy was still very fragile. And that's why Jennifer took so long to tell him about the rape. She knew how he'd react. She'd seen it. And she was right. Told you I'd talk a lot ;) Basically, forcing Jack to tell her how he feels keeps Jack connected to the relationship. When he started feeling unworthy, that's when he'd usually flat out refuse to to say the words. The show's consistency with this is why this story stands the test of time. On another note.I LOVED Lawrence.Me too. In fact, while I didn't like Carly as a friend to Jennifer I absolutely loved Lawrence and Carly. There were so many reasons why I shouldn't. Deep down I knew it was somewhat wrong and twisted but I didn't care. ![]() |
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JacksGirl |
#275 | |||
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IrlandesaK-I have to agree with you on that.It was
great to see the push/pull thing going on.However sometimes you just wanted to say to Jenn,"Get some pride!".I have to admit though that I loved how
she got engaged to spite Jack.I think that was her final way of saying to him that she wasn't going to wait around for him to get a clue and do something
about it.I loved though on the COD how she admitted to Jack that she had done it.That she had used Emilio to get to him.It's not something one would expect
Jennifer to do,especially not Jack.I really think he knew it too.
I didn't like Carly as a friend to Jennifer either.On her own,or paired with Lawrence she was ok.I just didn't like the way she kept saying,"friends for life",and then would not be there for Jenn.Jenn got herself into huge trouble,and ultimately she "got herself"raped all for Carly,and Carly did nothing to try to stop her.Carly always wanted Jennifer's help for one thing or another,but even after Carly saw the article about Jennifer's rape,where was she?She didn't keep her word when she said to Jennifer,"Whatever you need,whenever you need it,you call me and I'll be here".The only time I saw her step up was for the trial,and that's probably because she was forced to testify.Other than that,Carly really dropped the ball on their friendship,going so far as to leave town with the man who raped her "best friend".While I liked Carly and Lawrence together,in another way I found it sick that Carly would do that to her "best friend".If I remember correctly,Jennifer didn't mention Carly again after that... JG
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oldtimejackjenfan |
#276 | |||
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I wish Jack had pointed out the Steve/Kayla/Emilio parallel with Jack/Jennifer/Emilio - not that it was so much the same situation, but the fact that Jennifer
was getting married to someone she didn't love - and in many ways, I think that Kayla got involved with Jack to help him - but also because she felt
hopeless, lost and also maybe wanted to prove to herself and Steve that even if *he* didn't want her, someone else did.
Jennifer had a ton of insecurity borne from her parents not ever really being there for her , and despite the fact that the grandparents and mike were - she still felt unloved a lot growing up. I think that's why she understood Jack, but I also think it's why she needed to *hear* him vocalize the words. She was also so very young and I don't know about you all, but when I was 20, I wasn't super sure of myself with how others felt. Heck, I'm still not! I think if Jack had talked to Jennifer how Emilio might feel being always last-chosen, it might have been a more sober kick in the head for her... BUT... I loved how the story went - the JackIlio stuff was priceless and I love the firetruck thing - it was so beautifully written, ,staged, and acted. |
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JacksGirl |
#277 | |||
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Oldtime-I can totally see what you're saying.In many ways,Jennifer had a past that was just as bad as Jack's.Not in terms of violence or
anything,but like Jack,Jennifer always had people who left her (her mother,father,and later Mike,Frankie,Glenn,etc).So she was desperate to be really and truly
loved,just like Jack was.I think that's why they were BOTH so willing to marry people who didn't love them.They both probably thought that the love
would grow from those relationships (even though we knew it wouldn't).Like Kayla,I don't think Emilio loved Jennifer as much as he professed to (no
Kayla didn't profess to love Jack).Look at how easy it was for Emilio to hook up with Melissa.No one reacts the way Emilio did when Jennifer went to break
it off with him.
I hadn't really thought about it Oldtime,but I think you're right about Jennifer and her need to *hear*Jack say the words.I now that I think about it,no one really told Jennifer they loved her and "meant"it.So she needed to hear Jack say it and MEAN it. It would have been great to see Jack open up to her about how it felt to be the third wheel in a triangle.After all,this was to be the second time that Jack was involved with one.I think though that the reason he didn't was because ultimately,this time he knew he was the one coming out on top,unlike with Steve and Kayla.But he should have at least said,"Listen,I know you want me,but square things away with him first.I can't be a party to hurting him,no matter how I might feel about him myself".It was all beautifully done otherwise though. JG
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